Some interesting conversations are going on at the moment, and rather than attempt to summarize, interpret or spin, I’ll just give the links and let everyone decide for themselves.
http://mixednutsblog.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/privilege-choice-entitlement-and-minority-rule/
http://afamilyaffair.wordpress.com/2007/12/12/adoption-ramble/#comments
http://paragraphein.wordpress.com/2007/12/16/cant-get-through/
A collection of my short stories:
I'm in this one, too ...
And I'm in here, as well ...
Paradise Preoccupied 
Thank you for asking that question to paragraphein. I wish she had heard it.
-Jess
I’m not sure if it’s that simple. In the case of international adoption how can you get an entire country to change their policies? We can’t even fix our foster care system over here, it’s not even on the political platforms here, let alone tackle China’s one child policy? Destroy a stigma against single mothers?
Until the world becomes a perfect place, adoption has to remain an option, but I definetly am against cohersing women or what folks in England seem to be doing and definetly for people making their own decisions.
But, it’s really not a simple matter to adopt from the foster care system I’ve learned after research and reading. What’s it to them if a person decides to adopt a baby instead of an older child?
It’s their business, none of these folks have the right to judge.
You just said a million things in that post, S/I/S, that I’ve been ridiculed for saying. So, thank you. I feel less crazy now.
Just a warning, say that in the wrong place and you are in for a long ride with people who haven’t looked at many sides and issues of international adoption.
. . . you know, I am posting on someone’s blog that I haven’t read much on. I apologize if I am out of line here.
Birth mothers in this country should not be comparing their situations to birth mothers in third world countries and speaking for them.
I’m getting so tired of the anti-adoption tirade.
Lisa s.
S, I worded and re-worded this reply about four times already. It’s so hard to put into black and white the feelings that roll around in your gut.
This is as close as I can get to what I feel…..what I deep-down-in-the-gut, honest-to-God, don’t-care-about-being-“compassionate”-or-politically-correct feel:
If I had taken the words of the anti adoption folks to heart and given up on adoption, my son would be STARVING right now. My son might be DEAD right now. That’s right….this precious child –of mine, of his birthparent’s and of God’s–, could be WORSE THAN DEAD. And that’s the words of my son’s MOTHER in Guatemala, not mine. She wrote pretty much exactly that in her letter to our agency when they wanted written documentation from her on why she chose an adoption plan for our son. She was achingly clear…..she had no money, no resources and no social back-up to feed, clothe or shelter her son. And no amount of “you shouldn’t have to give up your child because you’re in poverty” was going to change that.
It’s an in-your-face fact that words and good intentions and beliefs do not put food into bellies, do not change a country’s economic status or governmental practices, do not keep parents from abusing their children or make immature parents ready to parent. If you believe that adoption is wrong, then work to fix the problem. Become a missionary, give to honest charities, fund a family overseas, get involved in acrediting adoption agencies, help find a way to make parenting as attractive, and profitable, an option as relinquishment, do whatever.
Just, whatever you do, DON’T ignore the FACTS of WHY so many of these children find themselves in need of a home. DON’T ignore their starving bellies, their lack of shelter and dignity, the very real possiblity that tomorrow they may die by violence or, if they’re lucky, they’ll live to be hungry and unwanted another day.
How many children suffer while we argue over whose pain is worse, whose entitlement is more obnoxious?
Here as an adoptee, yes, adoption sucks or not.
To fill it out a tad more… it did indeed suck to be taught by my local society that adoption “makes no difference”… and to live by that conviction (more or less settled unconsciously and in an unexamined way) for years. Then, at about fifty, to see that indeed it was profoundly consequential and was indeed a difference in my life. Honest mistakes on the part of society? Yes, and no.
That “no” is another part that sucks.
The “not”… well… hey, my parents did indeed love… and my community did too… and I have strengths that not many people have… and have worked through stuff that has brought me joy.
I don’t wish adoption for your children, however. Or my own.
To “wish” adoption for children. Hmmmmm ….
If wishes were horses, there would be no need for adoption. The world would be a peaceful, bountiful place where every baby was born to loving parents willing and able to care for it in the way every little human should be cared for.
That being far from the case, I find myself wishing adoption for millions of children.
It’s so nice to find a safe place to speak. I didn’t realize I’d have such a red X in the middle of my forehead posting on sites where I am just trying to discuss nicely with people. Maybe somehow I am not coming across that way.
But then again, it’ll probably be used as ammo that I posted here again. My first comment was used that way.
I am tired of the ammo.
Why do they need ammunition?
Why am I being shot at because I choose to adopt a child?
They don’t know me.
They don’t know my child’s story.
They are not fostering children. They are not volunteering in the dump communities in Guatemala where my son could have ended up.
I am so tired.
Josh & Jessica,
I can’t guarantee that readers won’t lock and load … they do that sometimes … but you won’t get the red X from me, so feel free to join the conversation.
Your baby is beautiful, by the way.
Thank you.
I’ve been reading your site. You are a talented writer.
-jess
Thank you, Jess.
Jess,
I’m sorry for the ammo shot your way. Get used to it, though. These are people who seriously don’t like thier point-of-view questioned in even the slightest way.
I’ve been around the block with more than a few of them. And I’ve found out this: there is a lot of talk, a lot of nastiness, a lot of angst, a lot of barbed and unbarbed comments designed to make themselves look “educated” and anyone who doesn’t worship at the altar of their opinon to be, at best, ignorant and naive and, at worst, a mother by means both illegal and unethical.
So, they’re long on accusations, but short on content when it comes to making a difference in the lives of the children. The children. Get it? The ones this whole debate is supposed to be about.
I try hard to worry much more about the actual children and their circumstances than the people who want to spend their time putting down others for loving not just our own children, but the world’s children, also.
Anyway, chin up 🙂 You have a group of supporters here 🙂
Have a great day!
I still can’t even understand anti-adoption.
I’m definetly anti-cohersion and dishonesty, but there aren’t enough people REALLY thinking about what is best for children who only have orphanages and institutions to look forward to.
Depressingly, they are the lucky ones. At least they are not wandering the streets fending for themselves. It’s too deeply depressing for people to argue about the wrong things when the attitudes of the past have probably contributed to negative domestic adoption experiences.
It can’t really be compared to countries where the government is unwilling to set up assistance for the poor and it would take almost a century to change that.
Thank you SO MUCH Tisha. Again, it is so nice not to wonder if I am crazy. I am very, very glad I found this blog.
I am done submitting myself to their nastiness. I want to learn. I never want to stick up for a point of view that I have not taken time to value the other’s opinion. But I will not subject myself to them any longer. I do not subject myself to disrespectful and mean people in the real world, why have I done it for so long here??
You know, I wonder subconsciously this is a tactic to dodge issues that are holes in their beliefs. I mean, if they attack me about being stupid then I end up defending myself instead of raising more questions.
If anyone wants to see where the original debate started you can go here:
http://discussion.bethany.org/viewtopic.php?t=44703
Honestly, truly I want to learn. And honestly and truly I care about them and what they’ve gone through. But it is very hard to learn from anyone who is hateful.
Mostly, I am sad that my kids will be up against people who will shove this at them in such a hateful way.
-Jess
Love this blog! Thanks for reccomending it, Jess!
Sandra, thanks for having me. 🙂
My pleasure, kristen.
I want clarify the second paragraph of my last post. Readers can probably figure it out but I want to make sure it’s clear.
When I said “here” I mean the other blogs and forums I’ve posted on.
Probably clear, but I don’t want to be misread.
Thanks for working hard to make this a safe place Sandra!
Jess,
There are a group of women over at bethany.org who are truly ignorant and nasty. When you ask them to flesh out their views and engage in dialogue, they pull out the insults and character defamation, but they have no reasonable foundation for the things they say. And it makes them crazy vicious when they realize it. Their motto is “when unable to support your views, attack and insult to take the focus away from the point of the discussion”
I’ll be honest. I think some of them are dam*ned crazy. They roll themselves in angst, drama and guilt like dogs in crap. I shudder for their kids. I really do. What does it say to your kids when you are always sad about adoption? What does it say that you think the way your child came into your family was wrong? What does it mean to a child when you spout off about how corrupt and unethical adoption is? Ugh.
In all honesty, I don’t think they recognize that they do more to drive people AWAY from things like open adoption and adoption reform than they do to introduce them to the problems that so clearly exist in both domestic and international adoption. They just keep stroking each other, telling themselves that they are the only right ones and they’re doing great things for the world and they never even so much as peek out from under their self-righteousness to check out the impact they’re having on so many people who are in a position to help spread the word and demand change.
I’m sooooooo glad I found other people more reasonable and balanced to discuss adoption with. I’d highly recommend you write a letter to admin, explaining why you’re leaving and then give yourself a good turn and join another site. There are some really good ones, both just for AP’s and also cross-triad that DON’T use insults to cover up the flaws in their reasoning……check it out. It’s a lot healthier, I think. 🙂
Wow Tisha. Obviously you’ve been on the Bethany boards. You nailed them to a T. Are you a recovering BCS boarder too??
Obviously, you’ve been drinking the same kool-aid I’ve been drinking!! 😉 jk
I’ve written letters. I don’t think Bethany seems to be doing anything about it which just breaks my heart. These days the internet is where women go who are searching for answers. This militant birthmother side is presented and nothing else (pro-bethany/pro-adoption) can survive. They DO chase people away, which is what they want to do!
I started out talking with them and reading their blogs to open myself up to what they are passionate about, but when I just got attacked and belittled until I agreed with them, I realized what had happened and I was disgusted at myself! The one think I “got” out of our “discussions” was that adoption shouldn’t be a solution for infertility. Truly, I had “gotten” that already but it sunk in a little more hearing it from their perspective. Those were the kind of things I am desiring to learn from birthmothers. But now, these women have NO chance of me “getting” anything from them because they are so awful about it. And the blogs! Try to have a decent conversation with people and UGH you leave a bloody mess! I tried to just ignore the nasty people but then it just completely shut me off and now I am done.
Anyway, back to Bethany. These women attack others for ASKING about their children’s different hair (domestic African American adoption). They attacked a woman for seeking advise on how other’s handled sibling rivalry when a child comes home. And the worst part the “moderator” (yes, I understand you may read this Angela) comes in to defend them! Even after the mother has expressed that the militant person was way out of line and painfully hurtful! Why do they not get that that makes us afraid to discuss with eachother and learn of adoption/multi-cultural issues in the forum. When that is what they are attacking these mothers of not already doing!
Then on other posts they run off every well meaning but not “educated” mother asking for a bigger view of birthmother’s experiences. They spend their time being passive aggressive on other discussions like, “thanks for being honest!” (about DIA when the topic was foster adopt) “I think it (DIA) frightens us all at times for various reasons” . . . . um. . . I bet the other woman was saying she was frightened of DIA because of militant birthmoms, so atleast she proved her right.
Really, I blame Bethany more for letting it go on. Allowing each side of the coin to be presented is one thing. Allowing them to run off Bethany adoptive mothers who are honestly trying to learn and be sensitive is another!
whew, sorry, I got on a roll.
Asking questions does not mean I am not interested in hearing what they have to say. But leaving the discussions because I am tired of being attacked, means I am not interested any longer to hearing from them.
Why, Oh Why, is it “ironic” when we desire them to respect us in the same way they desire us to respect them? It just seems like common sense to me!
(Sandra, I understand if you chose not to allow this post to stay. This is the first time I’ve gotten this combative and if it is out of line, I apologize. I’ll leave it up to you.)
Thanks for listening to me rant a bit.
-jess
Wow. It is 6:23 in the morning and I’m all riled up, Tisha and Jess!
You have echoed my thoughts exactly. There are some amazing people that choose to have a gentle dialogue, and some that choose to get nasty as soon as the disagreements start. No one is going to learn there. 😦
I am frustrated because I have sent 5 different PM’s to people who have said I don’t “get it” and posted one open message as a sincere invitation. If I don’ t “get it,” please, PM me and tell me where I’m wrong…. You know what is in my inbox? Tumbleweed. Nothing.
I did hear from one first mom who is thinking about my question and how to word it, and I’m glad that she is going to talk to me about it.
I honestly want to know what I am not “getting,” but I have since decided that people have more fun fighting. I mean, really, if it was so important, you’d think people would be jumping all over the chance to educate me.
The thing is, I think I do “get it.” I just don’t agree with them on every point, which means one thing only. I am wrong.
They don’t respond to our private messages. I’ve sent the same questions and they haven’t responded to mine either.
Last week I sent Nicole this private message,
“I need to ask you Nicole, where have I made you feel like I do not care for adoption reform? I thought I’ve tried to just raise questions and explore things, while defending my family when it gets personal. Somehow it has come across as anti-adoption-reform. How did I do that?”
“In not understanding everything you say or coming from a totally different perspective and experience mean that I am anti-adoption-reform?”
I also really want to know how I came across as entitled to a baby? I never want to come across that way.”
“In just reading your post about your parents’ counselor I totally heard my heart cry out for you and desire these things to stop in adoptions. I’ve always been reading your writings to discover those things.”
“I hope that in my story I wrote out that you can see I am very interested in ethical adoptions. So, I do not want to be so controversial when I explore topics with people.”
“Can you help me understand how we ended up arguing and hurting eachother?”
“Please, hear my tone in this as soft and gentle, I am not being sarcastic or argumentative at all. I appreciate your answers when you have time and energy to answer me.”
“-Jess”
That private message was met by cricket sounds. silence. I guess it isn’t worth them attacking and arguing when no one else can pat you on the back for it.
A few days ago I chose not to throw a stone back when I got responded to on Nicole’s blog like this, “it just frustrates me no end when people suggest ‘oh you are just a-scardey of their smarty-ness and ran away’ and then when you asked what smartness, the cat has made away with their tongue, pfffffft.”
Oh my goodness! God help me not to begin carrying around anger like they do.
I know I didn’t get the best grades in English class, and my writing is evident of that, but that response was Nasty, Just Nasty. With that, I stopped reading the blog. They shut me off because I refuse to be treated like that. I desire to learn from honest, gentle, well meaning people.
People who respond when there’s nothing in it for them other than to show the other person some respect.
-Jess
There’s my “C” in English showing again. Let me rewrite that last sentence.
I desire to carry a dialog with people who respond when there’s nothing in them other than to show the other person some respect.
-jess
Jess,
The only thing you’re “not getting” is that you’re supposed to chew, swallow and regurgitate their opinions back to them. You are frustrating them by not joining their chanting. So, if you want sincerely to have them say “YES! YOU get it! You’re one of us” you’re going to have to do a better job at the chew-swallow-regurgitate cycle.
Yes, I think we should welcome cross triad discussion. Yes, I think we should go outside our comfort zone to ask questions and find out how we can better support both adoptees and birthparents. Yes, I CAN see how others may see us as being in a position of entitlement. And so, I encourage myself to have those uncomfortable conversations and to put on a different pair of shoes from time to time.
That’s not the same, though, as letting someone abuse you over and over again. I call it abuse because the same women who are bugging you have had chances time and time again to re-read their words before hitting the submit button. Many, many others have asked them to please not be so harsh. They have plenty of opportunities to apologize and to love with the love of Christ and not with the agression and frustration of their own experiences. In PM’s many of these women have told me that they KNOW they hurt others, they KNOW their words are harsh and unloving, but still they egg each other on and do it over and over. That is abuse. And no one deserves it.
So, you have two options, as I see it. Play their game, spew their mantra and be accepted by them; drink their koolaid to use their own words. Or, pat yourself on the back for hanging with it as long as you have and turn your back on an ugly situation and seek your own experiences.
As you can tell, I picked the latter experience. I’m too old to play the seeking approval game and, to be blunt, I’m not interested in seeking the approval of people I don’t respect. I’m very glad that phase of my life is over.
Spew their mantra? Drink their koolaid? Are you kidding me? The lack of compassion understanding and empathy here astounds me.
I’m a foster parent FWIW and paragraphein has never been less than respectful to ANYONE. Nor have to others… They just UNDERSTAND. Have you guys been there? Lost a child to the adoption industry? Even if it’s just because you loved your child so much and people kept telling you your baby deserved better?
Why on earth can you not read and absorb what they are saying? Live you life without a child you birthed and then we’ll talk.
Wow. Here’s a conversation flash from the past. Nicole and others make their case well and often with grace and compassion, as do adoptive parents.
“Live you life without a child you birthed and then we’ll talk” is a recipe for closing doors and hearts.
I’m sorry to hijack here, Sandra, but I feel a need to differentiate myself from the above poster who shares my name. We’re different people, and I felt the need to make sure that was clear since others who might follow her here might also know who I am.
I USED to be a foster mom. I’m an adoptive mother who also parents transracially. I stumbled across your blog today by following a link on the Bethany Board, where I lurk rather infrequently.
Sorry again for using your comments section for my purposes. Carry on…
(For the little it’s worth, I thought the above post made an interesting point–although it’s not the one she intended. She objects to the phrase “drink their koolaid” but that is one that I have seen used MANY times on the board in question as well as in blogs…only, I’ve seen it used solely against, or to describe, adoptive parents. That’s irony.)
–A different Mindy